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A politics of care, however, must address who has the authority to determine the content of care, not just who pays for it. But I think you can see the same thing in non-human animals and not just in mammals, but in birds and maybe even in insects. So it isnt just a choice between lantern and spotlight. And he comes to visit her in this strange, old house in the Cambridge countryside. April 16, 2021 Produced by 'The Ezra Klein Show' Here's a sobering. She's also the author of the newly. Thats actually working against the very function of this early period of exploration and learning. That ones another cat. Alison Gopnik points out that a lot of young children have the imagination which better than the adult, because the children's imagination are "counterfactuals" which means it maybe happened in future, but not now. When people say, well, the robots have trouble generalizing, they dont mean they have trouble generalizing from driving a Tesla to driving a Lexus. Alex Murdaughs Trial Lasted Six Weeks. Scientists actually are the few people who as adults get to have this protected time when they can just explore, play, figure out what the world is like.', 'Love doesn't have goals or benchmarks or blueprints, but it does have a purpose. And the same way with The Children of Green Knowe. Youre going to visit your grandmother in her house in the country. Yeah, so I was thinking a lot about this, and I actually had converged on two childrens books. Alison Gopnik is a professor of psychology and philosophy at the University of California, Berkeley, where she runs the Cognitive Development and Learning Lab; shes also the author of over 100 papers and half a dozen books, including The Gardener and the Carpenter and The Philosophical Baby. What I love about her work is she takes the minds of children seriously. And what happens with development is that that part of the brain, that executive part gets more and more control over the rest of the brain as you get older. And you look at parental environment, and thats responsible for some of it. Tell me a little bit about those collaborations and the angle youre taking on this. There's an old view of the mind that goes something like this: The world is flooding in, and we're sitting back, just trying to process it all. NextMed said most of its customers are satisfied. What you do with these systems is say, heres what your goal is. She is a leader in the study of cognitive science and of children's . The Ezra Klein Show is produced by Rog Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld. and saying, oh, yeah, yeah, you got that one right. Something that strikes me about this conversation is exactly what you are touching on, this idea that you can have one objective function. Theyre getting information, figuring out what the water is like. And there seem to actually be two pathways. And the difference between just the things that we take for granted that, say, children are doing and the things that even the very best, most impressive A.I. And I suspect that they each come with a separate, a different kind of focus, a different way of being. Customer Service. PhilPapers PhilPeople PhilArchive PhilEvents PhilJobs. In "Possible Worlds: Why Do Children Pretend" by Alison Gopnik, the author talks about children and adults understanding the past and using it to help one later in life. So theres two big areas of development that seem to be different. And what weve been trying to do is to try and see what would you have to do to design an A.I. Their, This "Cited by" count includes citations to the following articles in Scholar. One of my greatest pleasures is to be what the French call a "flneur"someone. . Children are tuned to learn. You tell the human, I just want you to do stuff with the things that are here. Until then, I had always known exactly who I was: an exceptionally fortunate and happy woman, full of irrational. In the series Learning, Development, and Conceptual Change. And one idea people have had is, well, are there ways that we can make sure that those values are human values? Theres this constant tension between imitation and innovation. Tether Holdings and a related crypto broker used cat and mouse tricks to obscure identities, documents show. Read previous columns here. Already a member? Alison Gopnik is a professor of psychology and affiliate professor of philosophy at the University of California at Berkeley, where she has taught since 1988. . In the 1970s, a couple of programs in North Carolina experimented with high-quality childcare centers for kids. She is the author of The Gardener . Yeah, so I think thats a good question. And in robotics, for example, theres a lot of attempts to use this kind of imitative learning to train robots. And its much harder for A.I. So the acronym we have for our project is MESS, which stands for Model-Building Exploratory Social Learning Systems. project, in many ways, makes the differences more salient than the similarities. And I think that for A.I., the challenge is, how could we get a system thats capable of doing something thats really new, which is what you want if you want robustness and resilience, and isnt just random, but is new, but appropriately new. So to have a culture, one thing you need to do is to have a generation that comes in and can take advantage of all the other things that the previous generations have learned. And then we have adults who are really the head brain, the one thats actually going out and doing things. But nope, now you lost that game, so figure out something else to do. She spent decades. Alison Gopnik is known for her work in the areas of cognitive and language development, and specializes in the effect of language on thought, the development of a theory of mind, and causal learning. Because over and over again, something that is so simple, say, for young children that we just take it for granted, like the fact that when you go into a new maze, you explore it, that turns out to be really hard to figure out how to do with an A.I. But if we wanted to have A.I.s that had those kinds of capacities, theyd need to have grandmoms. So, explore first and then exploit. Across the globe, as middle-class high investment parents anxiously track each milestone, its easy to conclude that the point of being a parent is to accelerate your childs development as much as possible. Alison Gopnik investigates the infant mind September 1, 2009 Alison Gopnik is a psychologist and philosopher at the University of California, Berkeley. The following articles are merged in Scholar. 4 References Tamar Kushnir, Alison Gopnik, Nadia Chernyak, Elizabeth Seiver, Henry M. Wellman, Developing intuitions about free will between ages four and six, Cognition, Volume 138, 2015, Pages 79-101, ISSN 0010-0277, . Alison Gopnik is a professor of psychology and an affiliate professor of philosophy at the University of California, Berkeley. And again, theres this kind of tradeoff tension between all us cranky, old people saying, whats wrong with kids nowadays? Its this idea that youre going through the world. As a journalist, you can create a free Muck Rack account to customize your profile, list your contact preferences, and upload a portfolio of your best work. For non-personal use or to order multiple copies, please contact Alison Gopnik July 2012 Children who are better at pretending could reason better about counterfactualsthey were better at thinking about different possibilities. Alison Gopnik Authors Info & Affiliations Science 28 Sep 2012 Vol 337, Issue 6102 pp. They keep in touch with their imaginary friends. What does this somewhat deeper understanding of the childs brain imply for caregivers? And its worsened by an intellectual and economic culture that prizes efficiency and dismisses play. When he was 4, he was talking to his grandfather, who said, "I really wish. And Peter Godfrey-Smiths wonderful book Ive just been reading Metazoa talks about the octopus. And I just saw how constant it is, just all day, doing something, touching back, doing something, touching back, like 100 times in an hour. Alison Gopnik Freelance Writer, Freelance Berkeley Health, U.S. As seen in: The Guardian, The New York Times, HuffPost, The Wall Street Journal, ABC News (Australia), Color Research & Application, NPR, The Atlantic, The Economist, The New Yorker and more A Very Human Answer to One of AIs Deepest Dilemmas, Children, Creativity, and the Real Key to Intelligence, Causal learning, counterfactual reasoning and pretend play: a cross-cultural comparison of Peruvian, mixed- and low-socioeconomic status U.S. children | Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences, Love Lets Us Learn: Psychological Science Makes the Case for Policies That Help Children, The New Riddle of the Sphinx: Life History and Psychological Science, Emotional by Leonard Mlodinow review - the new thinking about feelings, What Children Lose When Their Brains Develop Too Fast, Why nation states struggle with social care. now and Ive been spending a lot of time collaborating with people in computer science at Berkeley who are trying to design better artificial intelligence systems the current systems that we have, I mean, the languages theyre designed to optimize, theyre really exploit systems. Theres a clock way, way up high at the top of that tower. And one of the things about her work, the thing that sets it apart for me is she uses children and studies children to understand all of us. By Alison Gopnik October 2015 Issue In 2006, i was 50 and I was falling apart. Ive been thinking about the old program, Kids Say the Darndest Things, if you just think about the things that kids say, collect them. Psychologist Alison Gopnik, a world-renowned expert in child development and author of several popular books including The Scientist in the Crib, The Philosophical Baby, and The Gardener and the Carpenter, has won the 2021 Carl Sagan Prize for Science Popularization. And I think for adults, a lot of the function, which has always been kind of mysterious like, why would reading about something that hasnt happened help you to understand things that have happened, or why would it be good in general I think for adults a lot of that kind of activity is the equivalent of play. And I was thinking, its absolutely not what I do when Im not working. Contrast that view with a new one that's quickly gaining ground. Anyone can read what you share. Ive trained myself to be productive so often that its sometimes hard to put it down. Its a form of actually doing things that, nevertheless, have this characteristic of not being immediately directed to a goal. And I think that evolution has used that strategy in designing human development in particular because we have this really long childhood. And the same thing is true with Mary Poppins. Is This How a Cold War With China Begins? When he visited the U.S., someone in the audience was sure to ask, But Prof. Piaget, how can we get them to do it faster?. Gopnik is the daughter of linguist Myrna Gopnik. Unlike my son and I dont want to brag here unlike my son, I can make it from his bedroom to the kitchen without any stops along the way. Anxious parents instruct their children . In this conversation on The Ezra Klein Show, Gopnik and I discuss the way children think, the cognitive reasons social change so often starts with the young, and the power of play. Just think about the breath right at the edge of the nostril. Babies' brains,. Another thing that people point out about play is play is fun. Theyre seeing what we do. But you sort of say that children are the R&D wing of our species and that as generations turn over, we change in ways and adapt to things in ways that the normal genetic pathway of evolution wouldnt necessarily predict. An earlier version of this chapter was presented at the Society for Research . Could you talk a bit about that, what this sort of period of plasticity is doing at scale? So imagine if your arms were like your two-year-old, right? Theres even a nice study by Marjorie Taylor who studied a lot of this imaginative play that when you talk to people who are adult writers, for example, they tell you that they remember their imaginary friends from when they were kids. Advertisement. Sometimes if theyre mice, theyre play fighting. When I went to Vox Media, partially I did that because of their great CMS or publishing software Chorus. Previously she was articles editor for the magazine . Well, from an evolutionary biology point of view, one of the things thats really striking is this relationship between what biologists call life history, how our developmental sequence unfolds, and things like how intelligent we are. And it turns out that if you have a system like that, it will be very good at doing the things that it was optimized for, but not very good at being resilient, not very good at changing when things are different, right? But one of the thoughts it triggered for me, as somebody whos been pretty involved in meditation for the last decade or so, theres a real dominance of the vipassana style concentration meditation, single point meditations. Welcome.This past week, a close friend of mine lost a child--or, rather--lost a fertilized egg that she had high hopes would develop into a child. Alison Gopnik Scarborough College, University of Toronto Janet W. Astington McLuhan Program in Culture and Technology, University of Toronto GOPNIK, ALISON, and ASTINGTON, JANET W. Children's Understanding of Representational Change and Its Relation to the Understanding of False Belief and the Appearance-Reality Distinction. The other change thats particularly relevant to humans is that we have the prefrontal cortex. But it seems to be a really general pattern across so many different species at so many different times. The robots are much more resilient. So we have more different people who are involved and engaged in taking care of children. For the US developmental psychologist Alison Gopnik, this experiment reveals some of the deep flaws in modern parenting. They mean they have trouble going from putting the block down at this point to putting the block down a centimeter to the left, right? Youre not deciding what to pay attention to in the movie. Thats a way of appreciating it. Well, I think heres the wrong message to take, first of all, which I think is often the message that gets taken from this kind of information, especially in our time and our place and among people in our culture. And it really makes it tricky if you want to do evidence-based policy, which we all want to do. She takes childhood seriously as a phase in human development. Or you have the A.I. Then they do something else and they look back. Part of the problem and this is a general explore or exploit problem. Chapter Three The Trouble with Geniuses, part 1 by Malcolm Gladwell. Illustration by Alex Eben Meyer. And thats not the right thing. And the most important thing is, is this going to teach me something? What are the trade-offs to have that flexibility? Its been incredibly fun at the Berkeley Artificial Intelligence Research Group. Today its no longer just impatient Americans who assume that faster brain and cognitive development is better. Several studies suggest that specific rela-tions between semantic and cognitive devel-opment may exist. And I think thats kind of the best analogy I can think of for the state that the children are in. And if theyre crows, theyre playing with twigs and figuring out how they can use the twigs. But, again, the sort of baseline is that humans have this really, really long period of immaturity. Does this help explain why revolutionary political ideas are so much more appealing to sort of teens and 20 somethings and then why so much revolutionary political action comes from those age groups, comes from students? And the reason is that when you actually read the Mary Poppins books, especially the later ones, like Mary Poppins in the Park and Mary Poppins Opens the Door, Mary Poppins is a much stranger, weirder, darker figure than Julie Andrews is. And then for older children, that same day, my nine-year-old, who is very into the Marvel universe and superheroes, said, could we read a chapter from Mary Poppins, which is, again, something that grandmom reads. So for instance, if you look at rats and you look at the rats who get to do play fighting versus rats who dont, its not that the rats who play can do things that the rats cant play can, like every specific fighting technique the rats will have. Whats lost in that? But Id be interested to hear what you all like because Ive become a little bit of a nerd about these apps. And of course, as I say, we have two-year-olds around a lot, so we dont really need any more two-year-olds. And that could pick things up and put them in boxes and now when you gave it a screw that looked a little different from the previous screw and a box that looked a little different from the previous box, that they could figure out, oh, yeah, no, that ones a screw, and it goes in the screw box, not the other box. You go out and maximize that goal. The scientist in the crib: What early learning tells us about the mind, Theoretical explanations of children's understanding of the mind, Knowing how you know: Young children's ability to identify and remember the sources of their beliefs. The peer-reviewed journal article that I have chosen, . So you see this really deep tension, which I think were facing all the time between how much are we considering different possibilities and how much are we acting efficiently and swiftly. Youre not doing it with much experience. She is Jewish. Her writings on psychology and cognitive science have appeared in the most prestigious scientific journals and her work also includes four books and over 100 journal articles. Alison Gopnik is a professor of psychology and affiliate professor of philosophy at the University of California at Berkeley, and a member of the Berkeley AI Research Group. Explore our digital archive back to 1845, including articles by more than 150 Nobel . Thank you to Alison Gopnik for being here. Cognitive psychologist Alison Gopnik has been studying this landscape of children and play for her whole career. So, what goes on in play is different. And then the ones that arent are pruned, as neuroscientists say. March 16, 2011 2:15 PM. And then once youve done that kind of exploration of the space of possibilities, then as an adult now in that environment, you can decide which of those things you want to have happen. So, my thought is that we could imagine an alternate evolutionary path by which each of us was both a child and an adult. The flneur has a long and honored literary history. Alison Gopnik is a Professor in the Department of Psychology. What a Poetic Mind Can Teach Us About How to Live, Our Brains Werent Designed for This Kind of Food, Inside the Minds of Spiders, Octopuses and Artificial Intelligence, This Book Changed My Relationship to Pain. Do you think for kids that play or imaginative play should be understood as a form of consciousness, a state? But as I say and this is always sort of amazing to me you put the pen 5 centimeters to one side, and now they have no idea what to do. So Ive been collaborating with a whole group of people. And its interesting that if you look at what might look like a really different literature, look at studies about the effects of preschool on later development in children. So I think we have children who really have this explorer brain and this explorer experience. Thats kind of how consciousness works. So if youre thinking about intelligence, theres a real genuine tradeoff between your ability to explore as many options as you can versus your ability to quickly, efficiently commit to a particular option and implement it. That could do the kinds of things that two-year-olds can do. .css-16c7pto-SnippetSignInLink{-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline;cursor:pointer;}Sign In, Copyright 2023 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved, Save 15% on orders of $100+ with Kohl's coupon, 50% off + free delivery on any order with DoorDash promo code. Well, or what at least some people want to do. But I found something recently that I like. program, can do something that no two-year-old can do effortlessly, which is mimic the text of a certain kind of author. Their health is better. Its about dealing with something new or unexpected. But of course, what you also want is for that new generation to be able to modify and tweak and change and alter the things that the previous generation has done. Five years later, my grandson Augie was born. So those are two really, really different kinds of consciousness. The role of imitation in understanding persons and developing a theory of mind. UC Berkeley psychology professor Alison Gopnik studies how toddlers and young people learn to apply that understanding to computing. Is that right? So theres a really nice picture about what happens in professorial consciousness. Some of the things that were looking at, for instance, is with children, when theyre learning to identify objects in the world, one thing they do is they pick them up and then they move around. But a mind tuned to learn works differently from a mind trying to exploit what it already knows. That ones a dog. But it also involves allowing the next generation to take those values, look at them in the context of the environment they find themselves in now, reshape them, rethink them, do all the things that we were mentioning that teenagers do consider different kinds of alternatives. And I think for grown-ups, thats really the equivalent of the kind of especially the kind of pretend play and imaginative play that you see in children. I think that theres a paradox about, for example, going out and saying, I am going to meditate and stop trying to get goals. But if you think that part of the function of childhood is to introduce that kind of variability into the world and that being a good caregiver has the effect of allowing children to come out in all these different ways, then the basic methodology of the twin studies is to assume that if parenting has an effect, its going to have an effect by the child being more like the parent and by, say, the three children that are the children of the same parent being more like each other than, say, the twins who are adopted by different parents. This byline is for a different person with the same name. So you just heard earlier in the conversation they began doing a lot of work around A.I. Rising costs and a shortage of workers are pushing the Southwest-style restaurant chain to do more with less. About us. Continue reading your article witha WSJ subscription, Already a member? So it turns out that you look at genetics, and thats responsible for some of the variance. And I actually shut down all the other things that Im not paying attention to. thats saying, oh, good, your Go score just went up, so do what youre doing there. And we do it partially through children. But now that you point it out, sure enough there is one there. Mr. Murdaughs gambit of taking the stand in his own defense failed. Mind & Matter, now once per month (Click on the title for text, or on the date for link to The Wall Street Journal *) . She is the author of The Scientist in the Crib, The Philosophical Baby, and The Gardener and the Carpenter. And you start ruminating about other things. And the octopus is very puzzling because the octos dont have a long childhood. researchers are borrowing from human children, the effects of different types of meditation on the brain and more. will have one goal, and that will never change. The great Swiss psychologist Jean Piaget used to talk about the American question. In the course of his long career, he lectured around the world, explaining how childrens minds develop as they get older. And we had a marvelous time reading Mary Poppins. This byline is mine, but I want my name removed. And we can compare what it is that the kids and the A.I.s do in that same environment. So I think more and more, especially in the cultural context, that having a new generation that can look around at everything around it and say, let me try to make sense out of this, or let me understand this and let me think of all the new things that I could do, given this new environment, which is the thing that children, and I think not just infants and babies, but up through adolescence, that children are doing, that could be a real advantage. It comes in. She has a lovely article in the July, 2010, issue. She introduces the topic of causal understanding. As youve been learning so much about the effort to create A.I., has it made you think about the human brain differently? Its absolutely essential for that broad-based learning and understanding to happen. Shes part of the A.I. If one defined intelligence as the ability to learn and to learn fast and to learn flexibly, a two-year-old is a lot more intelligent right now than I am. 2Pixar(Bao) It could just be your garden or the street that youre walking on. And theyre going to the greengrocer and the fishmonger. If youve got this kind of strategy of, heres the goal, try to accomplish the goal as best as you possibly can, then its really kind of worrying about what the goal is, what the values are that youre giving these A.I. Younger learners are better than older ones at learning unusual abstra. One of them is the one thats sort of heres the goal-directed pathway, what they sometimes call the task dependent activity. This chapter describes the threshold to intelligence and explains that the domain of intelligence is only good up to a degree by which the author describes. Thats what lets humans keep altering their values and goals, and most of the time, for good. And we change what we do as a result. And I think its called social reference learning. And in meditation, you can see the contrast between some of these more pointed kinds of meditation versus whats sometimes called open awareness meditation. But on the other hand, there are very I mean, again, just take something really simple. And I was really pleased because my intuitions about the best books were completely confirmed by this great reunion with the grandchildren. You could just find it at calmywriter.com. The Understanding Latency webinar series is happening on March 6th-8th. Because what she does in that book is show through a lot of experiments and research that there is a way in which children are a lot smarter than adults I think thats the right way to say that a way in which their strangest, silliest seeming behaviors are actually remarkable. And theres a very, very general relationship between how long a period of childhood an organism has and roughly how smart they are, how big their brains are, how flexible they are. So that the ability to have an impulse in the back of your brain and the front of your brain can come in and shut that out. In the same week, another friend of mine had an abortion after becoming pregnant under circumstances that simply wouldn't make sense for . Slumping tech and property activity arent yet pushing the broader economy into recession. And meanwhile, I dont want to put too much weight on its beating everybody at Go, but that what it does seem plausible it could do in 10 years will be quite remarkable. Speakers include a But if you look at the social world, theres really this burst of plasticity and flexibility in adolescence. So the children, perhaps because they spend so much time in that state, also can be fussy and cranky and desperately wanting their next meal or desperately wanting comfort. And this constant touching back, I dont think I appreciated what a big part of development it was until I was a parent. Well, I have to say actually being involved in the A.I. And as you probably know if you look at something like ImageNet, you can show, say, a deep learning system a whole lot of pictures of cats and dogs on the web, and eventually youll get it so that it can, most of the time, say this is the cat, and this is the dog. So this isnt just a conversation about kids or for parents. One of the things thats really fascinating thats coming out in A.I. I didnt know that there was an airplane there. But they have more capacity and flexibility and changeability. I think its off, but I think its often in a way thats actually kind of interesting. So what play is really about is about this ability to change, to be resilient in the face of lots of different environments, in the face of lots of different possibilities. All of the Maurice Sendak books, but especially Where the Wild Things Are is a fantastic, wonderful book. And to the extent it is, what gives it that flexibility? But if you do the same walk with a two-year-old, you realize, wait a minute. And again, maybe not surprisingly, people have acted as if that kind of consciousness is what consciousness is really all about. And he said, the book is so much better than the movie. Youre desperately trying to focus on the specific things that you said that you would do. [MUSIC PLAYING]. But if you think that actually having all that variability is not a bad thing, its a good thing its what you want its what childhood and parenting is all about then having that kind of variation that you cant really explain either by genetics or by what the parents do, thats exactly what being a parent, being a caregiver is all about, is for.

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